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Subject: Justifying the cost of "genuine" laser parts
From Disgruntled "genuine" laser sailor
10 June 2011 at 03:49:43

MESSAGE TO DISGRUNTLED GENUINE LASER SAILOR – Thank you for your posting. If you wish to discuss this further then either contact Laser direct or provide the Hon. Secretary with your full details (including membership number) and a contact address. It is noted that your original posting (which has been removed) was signed using an alias and so I am not prepared to conduct a public debate (or go searching for the real source of your message) under these circumstances. Ron

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From Steve
11 June 2011 at 17:22:09

I don't agree with the very high level moderation of this site. Granted I didnt see the original message posted, and it may have been offensive and justified removal, but surely if it were to provide healthy debate amongst the members then why not let it run its course? Otherwise, why bother with the message board at all if people feel they can't air their thoughts?

From Tom
11 June 2011 at 21:43:22

Hi Ron, all. I somehow agree with Steve. Havent seen the msg and if it has been inappropriate or not, however the title suggest the potential for a open discussion about a topic many laser sailors moan quietly about :-). Might not change anything ( probably wont) but it could have the effect of giving guidelines to sailors about whats genuine, whats not and discuss options of cheaper non genuine parts to be used at training or club races (ie rooster sails) to maintain the "expensive" genuine parts in working order for events. Basically share knowledge and experience to avoid the issue Ron highlighted at Ulsters but also keep cost manageable for new comers.

From Hullman
13 June 2011 at 19:28:53

I saw the original post and even though it was potentially libellous (actually extremely libellous) it raised an interesting point. Is there guidance as to what genuine parts must be used. I assume that to compete you must have a genuine laser hull, mast sections, sails, foils etc but whats the rule on kickers, sheets, blocks, tillers etc.

From Ron
14 June 2011 at 05:21:02

In response to Hullman's posting - all the details about what is or is not permitted are contained within the Laser Class Rules and By-Laws. They are also available on the ILCA website at www.laserinternational.org.

From hugh sheehy
14 June 2011 at 05:52:26

I'm looking at getting back into dinghies after a long time in windsurfing and then one design keelboats so I'm looking at the laser class. I gotta say that the price of genuine sails in particular is a major "you gotta be kidding me" moment, so this is a discussion that shouldn't be ignored. Even looking at US based prices..179 for a replica part or >550 for an approved part? These are lasers, not dragons...

From Liam Lynch
15 June 2011 at 14:46:19

The sails are a particular problem. Not only are they very expensive but the quality is awful, one windy day and the leech is blown away. I bought a Rooster 8.1 a year ago (250 Euro) and it is still in pretty good shape.

From water please
26 June 2011 at 15:49:50

Totally agree, especially as this is the internet, is this not exactly the place for 'free' speech? I also did not see the original post, but quickly deleting a post with little explanation is not how our laser association / web forum should be run. It poses the question of what else has been deleted so the other laser sailors dont see it? I think the point is that if there was something that was actually libellous then that part should be removed but the point of the post should remain for discussion, we are a community after all. As others have clearly stated above me here, this is exactly the kind of debate we need going around the laser sailors. It helps new ones and develops the class.

From Ron
26 June 2011 at 21:52:37

Just so that “water please!” fully understands the situation let me explain carefully. By law, the ILA is held responsible for permitting items on its website. One would hope that a little discretion is permitted so that, should someone post something offensive or libellous, provided it is removed reasonable quickly, no further action would be taken. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… The Webmaster has strict instructions to adhere to the clear instructions that appear for anyone posting a new topic and also for anyone who is responding to a topic. In case “water please” missed it, the statements read: “ALL MESSAGES ARE NOW SCREENED. ABUSIVE MESSAGES WILL BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY AND THE USER WILL BE BLOCKED FROM USING THIS SYSTEM.” ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… The Webmaster, therefore, has a responsibility to ensure that only appropriate messages remain posted. I am advised that there is NO means of editing a message that was posted (even if the Webmaster wanted to). The message either stays on the website in its entirety or the entire item is removed. The person who posted the original message can always recreate it without the offensive (or libellous) part(s) and it will remain on the website for discussion. If you were to look at a number of the messages over the years you would see that there has been NO censorship regarding topics but, for the reasons stated above, there has had to be some censorship regarding offensive or libellous content. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… There are two interesting things about the posting by “water please”. For a start he/she is clearly afraid to use their real name in the post but chooses, instead, to attempt to hide behind a fictitious name. Secondly, although “water please” seems to write pretending to be defending Laser sailor’s rights in some way, it is noticeable that it took almost a full fortnight before he/she suddenly jumped to everyone else’s “assistance”.

From Brendan
27 June 2011 at 18:21:51

As it is almost universal practice to use pseudonyms for online communities, it's probably stretching it a bit to say that 'water please' is afraid. I acknowledge the difference here and vulnerability as contributors are not registered with the moderator. I believe the posting is sincere and well intentioned and should not be characterised as pretending anything.As there is no way of knowing how or when 'water please' became aware of this discussion , no safe conclusion can be drawn from any perceived delay in reply.